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http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/706950 Again a mis representation in pulic? --Siju
Let me be the first to say-- Who cares? I may completely disagree with him, but I'm not going to invest in a flame fest over his comments. To each their own. --STeve Andre'
<snip> Being here when Stallman started the last flame "nuclear holocaust" war, I feel a weird sense of deja-vu right now.
Eheh he's right :-) If you guys get your heads out of your asses and actually read his words with the use of some common sense you might get what he means. It's a balanced opinion. From what i've seen so far in this list, the BSD-crowd *is* "a bunch of masturbating monkeys" anyway, i get much more decent reasonable answers to my problems in any Debian list, along with constructive criticism. Here it's rtfm and chest-thumping. Flame away boys, so i can gingerly ignore you :) -- Nuno MagalhC#es
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Nuno Magalhces because here, many people have spent many hours making sure tfm gives you all the information you need
[...] Absolutely! I find the OpenBSD man pages to be dead accurate, and to-the-point. Typos, and grammar are considered too! -Amarendra
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:29:35 +0530 This looks like about as good a place as any to stick my 3" worth in, tho' Nick Guenther also comes close to the mark with his comments about system "correctness". Linus is obviously worried about something of more than passing import, and I think that he's begun to realize that OBSD's "correctness" extends beyond code quality and technical security. Linux is a Utopian product that carries substantial ideological baggage rendering it's use problematic to business/commercial concerns _except_ by the largest of institutions. *BSD has a license structure that makes it commercially safe for use by small/medium business... OpenBSD being only the most consistent in this purpose with it's development of a genuine engineering culture and product. Utopian endevours all fall on their real intent to be all things to all people, which, because of the inherent logical relationships of things like consistency and completness, is a fruitless vanity. Such "Complete" systems require the deep hypocrisy of limiting "everything and everyone" in order to function at all. In political systems this is often evidenced by "difficult" people just "disappearing" in ones and twos and droves. Dhu (carry on in awareness!)
debian users are masturbating amoebas
Yes it is. To illustrate the stupidity and pointlessness of this all. Linus is a troll, we know, who cares?
insulting anyone is IMHO hardly ever necessary/good, trolling (of known folks, such as linus and rms) is (again IMHO) best ignored.
just cannot imagine how could an amoeba jerk off.... -- With best regards, Gregory Edigarov
I try to imagine, but the amoeba splits. Sort of like linux. Paul.
On 16-Jul-08, at 12:14 PM, Steve Shockley Hey but I am! Pass the banana flavoured lube! Oook oook oook! Now could we return to useful conversation instead of feeding the trolls? -Bob
It's not that it isn't a balanced opinion or that he may be right or wrong - it's that the guy was asking why they weren't following their disclosure policy and no one has provided a sufficient answer as to Coming from the GNU/Linux community I felt the same way for a while. Then I started really looking at what my expectations were versus what they should be. In the Linux world I had grown used to expecting something in particular. Despite no SLA or any other type of agreement, I expected the community to support the distribution. When I made the change to FreeBSD and OpenBSD, I brought those expectations with me. Then I realised that was both selfish and foolish. Now my expectations have changed. I expect to get an install CD and whatever swag I pay for. Beyond that, I *hope* that if I have troubles that I can approach the *BSD community and get some assistance but I realise that that should never be an expectation and that I'm equally as likely to get a "sorry, I value my time" as I am to get "you should look at the -<foo> flag" - and that either response is ok. Actually, allow me to correct the above. At the end of the day there is one other expectation I have, and that is to be totally thrashed for bringing something totally off-topic or meaningless or just plain wrong to misc@. Marco commented: *yawn* linus' opinion is as interesting as his relevance. I say: +1 kmw
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Nuno Magalhces <nunomagalhaes@eu.ipp.pt> I agree. This mailing list is an oven (and like an oven, comes out with deliciousness in the end). Anyway, I don't think of OpenBSD as a 'secure' system, I think of it as a 'correct' system, and security is a side effect of that that's good for marketing. Doesn't seem like Linus gets that. I could see Linus' complaint better applied to SELinux or any of the thousands of "hardened" linux distros, which try to build in security after the fact and make a big deal of it. -Nick
It's a totally misinformed opinion. which is exactly what people in the OpenBSD project do, all the time (fix normal bugs). That's the proactive approach to security: don't wait until you have an exploit, just fix the darn bug. So, when he tries to say that the OpenBSD crowd has a different attitude, I don't know who he's referring to, but certainly not me. I don't think you have any idea how hard we're laughing right now. It's just so out of touch with how we see things, it's beyond pathetic. As you can see, my fellow developpers took it about the same way, but with even more sarcasm... we don't give a fuck about security for security's sake: free, FUNCTIONAL, secure. choose all three. Says so on the T-shirt.
Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love! -Woody Allen _________________________________________________________________ 100s of Nikon cameras to be won with Live Search http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719808/direct/01/
Jah. Wow Linus, apparently making your code such that it is actually stable and working is not a priority? Infact, itstead of not being a priority at all its actually considered BAD? Linus is a nutjob! -- Travers Buda
That's the funniest part about this. If the attitude we have about the issue in that disucssion makes us a bunch of wanking monkeys, I'll lend him my baboon porn. He was saying the same things we say. Hell, reading him in that discussion without the From: lines could make me think I'm reading someone @openbsd.org //art
looks like the theme for the 4.4 release is sorted then. _________________________________________________________________ Invite your Facebook friends to chat on Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719649/direct/01/
agreed. I barely can wait to see Ty Semaka artwork for 4.4. Definitively it should include monkeys. And amoebas too. My regards, -- Giancarlo Razzolini http://lock.razzolini.adm.br Linux User 172199 Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501 Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/ Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002 OpenBSD Stable Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron 4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842 6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85
I agree, monkeys should definitely be somehow incorporated into the artwork for the next release.
ty draws openbsd developers as fish. and I think that we, the openbsd developers, did enough to warrant a nice topic for the next release. no need to resort to that strange monkey business. or do you want to honour a stupid remark made by l. by making him the main theme of our next release? I don't think so. we have more substantial work that goes into our next release than the stupid remark of a wanking fat penguin that all to obviously does not understand what we do.
I agree entirely! The OpenBSD developers should surely be raised upon shoulders for all of there work... However a mocking sticker would be rather awesome! -Jim
I ask into myself what appen if the anyone of the FSF or GPLled people send at least one cent to developers, to say thanks to OpenSSH or OpenBSD for their FREE (as beer) good software. I think OpenSSH and OpenBSD just with this cents, will be poor more than Zimbabwe. But ANY FUCKIN PERSON can choose what it's important for HIS project? OpenBSD choose security, linux choose to sell cheese kernel with cheese buggy software. Why BSD license it's bad and GPL good? Fuck all. Anyone can choose what he want. I choose OpenBSD and his philosophy... Francesco
Personally, I think It'd be a nice continuation from the theme of the 4.3 release. _________________________________________________________________ Invite your Facebook friends to chat on Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719649/direct/01/
I concede your point. My agreement wasn't meant to dishonor the dev team. I just agree with a previous statement that owning something that was intended as an insult can diffuse the intended malice while at the same time providing a bit of mirth for the person at whom the insult was directed.
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:37:27 +0200 Wanking Sea Monkeys, then: the oceanic analogue of fleas, at least in the area of genital proportion ;-) Dhu
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:42 PM, Duncan Patton a Campbell < lol. Looks like someone is selling new stuffs over the net: http://www.cafepress.com/spankymm -zamri-
I guess Linus lost his ability to masturbate for a long time huh? -- This e-mail may be confidential. You may not copy, forward, distribute, or, use any part of it. Note, this text has no effective legal binding on your part, there is no obligation to abide any or all parts of this. Treat it with the same level of care as any other pretending-to-be-law-speaking-but-not-really texts attached to e-mail messages you normally find on any other e-mails. For more information about disclaimers, please see: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/
Sea Monkeys? I feed my fishes with sea monkeys! guido
haha, poor linus cries like a baby coz not everyone is gonna kiss his ass these days. of course security is not that important! there is no doubt, we've seen numerous examples by linux indeed. well, guess what is worse: a db server crashed and rebooted, or a db server rooted and all valuable information sucked out of it. jeez, i always thought that linux "wants" to get into serious game of big servers etc., but with the leader like that?.. gimme a break. he made my day with that comment! sorry guys for contributing to this, just couldn't resist :-) p.s. i guess dr. freud would find some serious troubles deep in the guy ;-)
Well, shit, he's got ME nailed... -- Systems Programmer, Principal Electrical & Computer Engineering The University of Arizona marti@arizona.edu
maybe it is noteworthy here that Sigmund Freud received his Dr. med degree with a work on the spinal cord of lower fish species.
I took the care of reading all the thread. The guy is just asking linus why the policy about security bugs isn't being followed. Linus replies him telling that he do not want script kiddies to exploit the bugs. He even says that security bugs are "normal" bugs. I think that linus doesn't even know what full disclosure is. It's a shame for me, a linux and openbsd user, to see the linux kernel main developer, saying things like that. I think i might migrate my desktop machine to openbsd now. My 2 cents, -- Giancarlo Razzolini http://lock.razzolini.adm.br Linux User 172199 Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501 Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/ Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002 OpenBSD Stable Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Herom 4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842 6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85
Oh he now develops code? I thought that ended somewhere in in '95.
He is very good at taking someone's else code and putting that into the linux kernel, i can assure that. My mind changed a lot since i started using OpenBSD. I know see that the development model of the linux kernel is flawed. I know, every model has it's issues. But *the* issue in linux model is linus itself. It's a shame. My 2 cents, -- Giancarlo Razzolini http://lock.razzolini.adm.br Linux User 172199 Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501 Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/ Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002 OpenBSD Stable Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Herom 4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842 6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 03:45:23PM -0300, Giancarlo Razzolini wrote:
| I took the care of reading all the thread. The guy is just asking linus
| why the policy about security bugs isn't being followed. Linus replies
| him telling that he do not want script kiddies to exploit the bugs. He
| even says that security bugs are "normal" bugs. I think that linus
| doesn't even know what full disclosure is. It's a shame for me, a linux
| and openbsd user, to see the linux kernel main developer, saying things
| like that. I think i might migrate my desktop machine to openbsd now.
I'd suggest you rethink your reasons for changing OS. If you want to
switch from Linux to OpenBSD (or vice versa, for all I care), please
make sure there's sound technical reasons for it. "The main guy said
something stupid" does not a bad product make.
Cheers,
Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd
+++++++++++>-]<.>++[<------------>-]<+.--------------.[-]
http://www.weirdnet.nl/
I'm still using linux and openbsd. There are technical reasons for me to do that. The problem here isn't the main guy said something stupid. The problem here, and this is what is making me more annoyed, is that i used to have a point of view, and thinking of Linus as a great guy, who made something important. He actually did, but now he is making it just plain wrong. You know, security bugs are security bugs. The other ones are the others. Simple like that. Linus is not just putting all of them in the same sack, but he is also offending who does not, like the openbsd dev team. This is an unacceptable attitude from someone who is in the front line of an entire operational system, and, who wanting it or not, has a big influence, at least in linux world. So, i will not change my OS because of what Linus said or not. I will change it because i think openbsd is better. Plain simple like that. If i do not change, there will be technical reasons for that, like my sound card not working on openbsd, or something like that (mention to note, it does not work properly on linux). My regards, -- Giancarlo Razzolini http://lock.razzolini.adm.br Linux User 172199 Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501 Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/ Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002 OpenBSD Stable Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron 4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842 6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85
*yawn* linus' opinion is as interesting as his relevance.
"To me, security is important. But it's no less important than everything *else* that is also important!" I.e. there are no shades of gray in import hence importance is black-and-while. Hmmmm... -- Monty Brandenberg
IMO, this isn't the worst sentence on linus' interview. He has the right to think anything about everything. He has even the right to be plain wrong. But he should _not_ say this about anyone: "I think the OpenBSD crowd is a bunch of masturbating monkeys (...)" What's the point here? If he places security in second place, that's fine. But don't say people who _do_ think like that is a bunch of bastards.
I like to think OpenBSD attracts the kind of people that come up with their own opinions from their own experiences and don't invest too heavily in others' before attempting to formulate their own. In other words, who cares what Linus thinks of security or OpenBSD? Just because he's the figure head of a very widely known open source project doesn't mean his opinions should be glorified or are more important.
And this is exactly why I never try to intice new users over to OpenBSD. If they're knowledgeable and appreciate correct/secure/elegant code, they'll find their way in time. We like people who think for themselves and recognize what OpenBSD is really all about. We don't want sheep. -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net/
"OpenBSD - proudly powered by primates' privates" -- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB Tel: 0161 834 7961 Fax: 0161 839 5797 http://www.chethams.org.uk
if ppl stop giving "special" consideration to security, the quality of security enforcement could come down. Ideally we like to "clean" all bugs. But as is pointed out, bugs are many. Prioritizing bugs and "dealing with a strong deadline" is vitally important. classification of bugs into domain is the most effective way to deal with them. Not only does it help people concerened in the area to be aware..fast. but also it helps in "discussiong" it with like-minded people. Posting a security bug in a general list will prove a little hard, as the people may not know what meat-in-the middle, priviledge escalation..etc mean. Its just bare stupidity to "clout" the bug space by generalizing it. One more point, The security bugs are important because the harm done is usually "crafted", with "bad intentions" and "on purpose". It also leads to financial "theft" an d"crimes" than just the normal loss of data or worktime(as in normal bug). You could get pennnalized as abeiting the crime. But a gui crash is always less severe. People can quickly loose trust in the software and the services that depend on them can be irrecoverabliy damaged. Think about it.... there are more people engaged in penetrating, propagating security holes than filing common bug reports.... it definitely isnt a time-waster for them. Hats of to open bsd people... its my second best distro for my boundary router/firewall(if i dont use cisco that is.). My first choice will be a kernel i "audited" myself... since i cant invest in it... openbsd does a good job too... ;) -- As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy. - Christopher Dawson, The Judgment of Nations
