Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!

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From: Frans Pop
Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 8:53 pm

Linus Torvalds wrote:

The main problem as I see it is with the huge number of hard, confirmed bugs 
that are *not* getting fixed.

With the current development model, developers only really care about 
current regressions. In a large part this is due to the excellent work of 
Rafael with his tracking of regressions since the previous release.
But it does mean older regressions fall by the wayside, even if they've been 
confirmed, bisected and the submitter is responsive.
For a while Natalie Protasevich did some work on trying to get attention for 
older regressions, but that effort seems to have died out.

Two concrete examples from my personal experience:
- http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9749; the error:
  sysctl table check failed:
  /dev/parport/parport0/devices/ppdev0/timeslice  Sysctl already exists
  First reported for 2.6.24-rc5, just now confirmed with 2.6.25
  Acknowledged by maintainer, but no follow-up [1].

- http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9310; the error:
  completely blank console with FRAMEBUFFER_CONSOLE_DETECT_PRIMARY set when
  framebuffer is active, but no VGA=xxx parameter is passed
  First reported for 2.6.23, confirmed for 2.6.24-rc6, almost certainly
  still present in 2.6.25
  Acknowledged by maintainer, but no follow-up despite later pings.


Another issue is that sometimes developers really are too eager to get their 
changes into mainline even when there are known issues or when they know in 
their heart that the changes have not received enough testing.

Example is a a scheduler change [2] that causes a completely reproducible 
regression (music skips and key repeats) on my box with one specific 
workload. Ingo and Peter have been great doing debugging after I reported 
it for 2.6.25-rc8 and it was reverted just before the release, but I was 
very surprised to see the patch resubmitted for 2.6.26 without the 
regression being resolved first.
It is now confirmed to still be there and there has been additional effort 
on it, but so far without result.

This really is nothing against Ingo (in fact he is in my experience one of 
the most responsive developers when issues are reported), but in this case 
I personally do feel the patch should not have been reintroduced into 
mainline before the regression had been sorted out.

Cheers,
FJP

[1] Update: Eric just added a nice reply in Bugzilla.
[2] http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10428
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/4/19/181
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Messages in current thread:
Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Miller, (Tue Apr 29, 7:03 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Newall, (Tue Apr 29, 9:03 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Miller, (Tue Apr 29, 9:18 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Apr 30, 12:03 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Tarkan Erimer, (Wed Apr 30, 12:11 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Newall, (Wed Apr 30, 6:04 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Michael Kerrisk, (Wed Apr 30, 6:18 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Newall, (Wed Apr 30, 6:28 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Mike Galbraith, (Wed Apr 30, 6:38 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Apr 30, 7:15 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Apr 30, 7:20 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Apr 30, 7:28 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, mws, (Wed Apr 30, 7:41 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Peter Teoh, (Wed Apr 30, 7:48 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 7:51 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Apr 30, 8:02 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Apr 30, 8:06 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Newall, (Wed Apr 30, 11:21 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 11:27 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Newall, (Wed Apr 30, 11:55 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Chris Friesen, (Wed Apr 30, 12:06 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 12:08 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 12:13 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Newall, (Wed Apr 30, 12:16 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Newall, (Wed Apr 30, 12:22 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 12:25 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 12:36 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 12:42 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 1:00 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 1:05 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 1:14 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 1:15 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 1:20 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 1:31 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 1:45 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Dan Noe, (Wed Apr 30, 1:47 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 1:54 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 1:56 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 1:59 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Miller, (Wed Apr 30, 2:21 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 2:30 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 2:37 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 2:37 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Dmitri Vorobiev, (Wed Apr 30, 2:42 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 2:47 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, H. Peter Anvin, (Wed Apr 30, 2:52 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Dmitri Vorobiev, (Wed Apr 30, 3:02 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Jiri Slaby, (Wed Apr 30, 3:06 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 3:08 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 3:10 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Apr 30, 3:19 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 3:19 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Miller, (Wed Apr 30, 3:22 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 3:23 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Dmitri Vorobiev, (Wed Apr 30, 3:28 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 3:31 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Apr 30, 3:35 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 3:39 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, david, (Wed Apr 30, 3:40 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 3:41 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Wed Apr 30, 3:46 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 3:49 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Miller, (Wed Apr 30, 3:51 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 3:52 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Mariusz Kozlowski, (Wed Apr 30, 3:53 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, david, (Wed Apr 30, 3:54 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 4:03 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Dmitri Vorobiev, (Wed Apr 30, 4:04 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 4:11 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Wed Apr 30, 4:12 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 4:20 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Wed Apr 30, 4:21 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 4:23 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Paul Mackerras, (Wed Apr 30, 4:29 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Greg KH, (Wed Apr 30, 4:34 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Chris Shoemaker, (Wed Apr 30, 4:38 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, david, (Wed Apr 30, 4:41 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 4:45 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 4:51 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, david, (Wed Apr 30, 4:57 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 4:59 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Chris Shoemaker, (Wed Apr 30, 5:01 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, david, (Wed Apr 30, 5:14 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Chris Shoemaker, (Wed Apr 30, 5:15 pm)
RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 30, 5:31 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 5:38 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 30, 5:38 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, David Miller, (Wed Apr 30, 5:41 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 5:42 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Wed Apr 30, 5:56 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 30, 5:57 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Arjan van de Ven, (Wed Apr 30, 6:13 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 6:19 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 30, 6:25 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 6:25 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Jeremy Fitzhardinge, (Wed Apr 30, 6:30 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Wed Apr 30, 6:31 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Theodore Tso, (Wed Apr 30, 6:35 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Jeremy Fitzhardinge, (Wed Apr 30, 6:39 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 6:40 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Ingo Molnar, (Wed Apr 30, 6:40 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 6:43 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Miller, (Wed Apr 30, 6:51 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Jeff Garzik, (Wed Apr 30, 6:57 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 7:01 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 30, 7:13 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Miller, (Wed Apr 30, 7:17 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Al Viro, (Wed Apr 30, 7:21 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 7:30 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Nigel Cunningham, (Wed Apr 30, 7:31 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Adrian Bunk, (Wed Apr 30, 7:48 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Frans Pop, (Wed Apr 30, 7:52 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Bob Tracy, (Wed Apr 30, 8:24 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 8:47 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Frans Pop, (Wed Apr 30, 8:53 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Jeff Garzik, (Wed Apr 30, 9:17 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Newall, (Wed Apr 30, 9:31 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, David Miller, (Wed Apr 30, 9:37 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Apr 30, 9:46 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Wed Apr 30, 10:09 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, david, (Wed Apr 30, 10:19 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Wed Apr 30, 10:35 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Wed Apr 30, 10:50 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Jan Engelhardt, (Wed Apr 30, 11:15 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Andrew Morton, (Thu May 1, 1:13 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Alan Cox, (Thu May 1, 2:17 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Enrico Weigelt, (Thu May 1, 3:30 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 3:59 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Adrian Bunk, (Thu May 1, 4:30 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 4:38 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 4:53 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 5:05 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Will Newton, (Thu May 1, 5:11 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Tarkan Erimer, (Thu May 1, 5:31 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 5:41 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, David Woodhouse, (Thu May 1, 5:42 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 5:53 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Adrian Bunk, (Thu May 1, 6:02 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Bartlomiej Zolnierki ..., (Thu May 1, 6:16 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Adrian Bunk, (Thu May 1, 6:21 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Adrian Bunk, (Thu May 1, 6:23 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Lennart Sorensen, (Thu May 1, 6:49 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 6:53 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Stefan Richter, (Thu May 1, 6:54 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 7:06 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Bartlomiej Zolnierki ..., (Thu May 1, 7:35 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Thu May 1, 8:26 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Kasper Sandberg, (Thu May 1, 8:28 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Ray Lee, (Thu May 1, 8:29 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Stefan Richter, (Thu May 1, 8:34 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Andrew Morton, (Thu May 1, 8:49 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Diego Calleja, (Thu May 1, 9:26 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Dmitri Vorobiev, (Thu May 1, 9:31 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Steven Rostedt, (Thu May 1, 9:38 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Valdis.Kletnieks, (Thu May 1, 9:39 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 10:09 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Andrew Morton, (Thu May 1, 10:18 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Theodore Tso, (Thu May 1, 10:24 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Thu May 1, 10:41 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Al Viro, (Thu May 1, 11:11 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Thu May 1, 11:23 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Linus Torvalds, (Thu May 1, 11:30 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Stephen Clark, (Thu May 1, 11:32 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Chris Frey, (Thu May 1, 11:35 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Thu May 1, 11:50 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Adrian Bunk, (Thu May 1, 11:54 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Thu May 1, 11:58 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Thu May 1, 12:03 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, david, (Thu May 1, 12:07 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Andrew Morton, (Thu May 1, 12:26 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Thu May 1, 12:28 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Valdis.Kletnieks, (Thu May 1, 12:36 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Al Viro, (Thu May 1, 12:37 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Friedrich , (Thu May 1, 12:39 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Steven Rostedt, (Thu May 1, 12:39 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, david, (Thu May 1, 12:46 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Willy Tarreau, (Thu May 1, 12:53 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andrew Morton, (Thu May 1, 12:58 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Joel Becker, (Thu May 1, 1:07 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 2:59 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rafael J. Wysocki, (Thu May 1, 3:17 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Kevin Winchester, (Thu May 1, 4:06 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Stephen Rothwell, (Thu May 1, 6:48 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Paul Mackerras, (Thu May 1, 7:08 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Paul Mackerras, (Thu May 1, 9:09 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Adrian Bunk, (Fri May 2, 1:29 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Adrian Bunk, (Fri May 2, 2:00 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Paul Mackerras, (Fri May 2, 3:16 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Andi Kleen, (Fri May 2, 3:20 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Adrian Bunk, (Fri May 2, 4:58 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Stefan Richter, (Fri May 2, 5:17 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Enrico Weigelt, (Fri May 2, 6:22 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Helge Hafting, (Fri May 2, 6:37 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Tarkan Erimer, (Fri May 2, 7:05 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Linus Torvalds, (Fri May 2, 7:58 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Mariusz Kozlowski, (Fri May 2, 8:33 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Carlos R. Mafra, (Fri May 2, 8:44 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Linus Torvalds, (Fri May 2, 9:28 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Carlos R. Mafra, (Fri May 2, 10:15 am)
RE: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Pallipadi, Venkatesh, (Fri May 2, 11:02 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rene Herman, (Sat May 3, 8:26 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Rene Herman, (Sun May 4, 5:45 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Pekka Enberg, (Sun May 4, 6:00 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Rene Herman, (Sun May 4, 6:19 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Krzysztof Halasa, (Sun May 4, 6:47 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Jacek Luczak, (Sun May 4, 8:05 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Rusty Russell, (Sun May 4, 8:04 pm)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Benny Halevy, (Mon May 5, 3:03 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Jiri Kosina, (Fri May 9, 2:28 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Jeff Garzik, (Fri May 9, 8:00 am)
Re: RFC: starting a kernel-testers group for newbies, Carlos R. Mafra, (Fri May 9, 12:30 pm)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Ben Dooks, (Mon May 12, 2:27 am)
Re: Slow DOWN, please!!!, Pavel Machek, (Wed May 14, 7:55 am)