On Thu, 1 May 2008, Willy Tarreau wrote:Heh. It's been done. In fact, it's done all the time on a smaller scale. It's how I've enforced some cleanliness or process issues ("I won't pull that because it's too ugly"). I see similar messages floating around about individual patches. That said, I don't think it really works that well as "the solution": it works as a small part of the bigger picture, but no, we can't see punishment as the primary model for encouraging better bevaiour. First off, and maybe this is not true, but I don't think it is a very healthy way to handle issues in general. I may come off as an opinionated bastard in discussions like these, and I am, but when it actually comes to maintaining code, really prefer a much softer approach. I want to _trust_ people, and I really don't want to be a "you need to do 'xyz' or else" kind of guy. So I'll happily say "I can't merge this, because xyz", where 'xyz' is something that is related to the particular code that is actually merged. But quite frankly, holding up _unrelated_ fixes, because some other issue hasn't been resolved, I really try to not do that. So I'll say "I don't want to merge this, because quite frankly, we've had enough code for this merge window already, it can wait". That tends to happen at the end of the merge window, but it's not a threat, it's just me being tired of the worries of inevitable new issues at the end of the window. And I personally feel that this is important to keep people motivated. Being too stick-oriented isn't healthy. The other reason I don't believe in the "won't merge until you do 'xyz'" kind of thing as a main development model is that it traditionally hasn't worked. People simply disagree, the vendors will take the code that their customers need, the users will get the tree that works for them, and saying "I won't merge it" won't help anybody if it's actually useful. Finally, the people I work with may not be perfect, but most maintainers are pretty much experts within their own area. At some point you have to ask yourself: "Could I do better? Would I have the time? Could I find somebody else to do better?" and not just in a theoretical way. And if the answer is "no", then at that point, what else can you do? Yes, we have personalities that clash, and merge problems. And let's face it, as kernel developers, we aren't exactly a very "cuddly" group of people. People are opinionated and not afraid to speak their mind. But on the whole, I think the kernel development community is actually driven a lot more by _positive_ things than by the stick of "I won't get merged unless I shape up". So quite frankly, I'd personally much rather have a process that encourages people to have so much _pride_ in what they do that they want it to be seen as being really good (and hopefully then that pride means that they won't take crap!) than having a chain of fear that trickles down. So this is why, for example, I have so strongly encouraged git maintainers to think of their public trees as "releases". Because I think people act differently when they *think* of their code as a release than when they think of it as a random development tree. I do _not_ want to slow down development by setting some kind of "quality bar" - but I do believe that we should keep our quality high, not because of any hoops we need to jump through, but because we take pride in the thing we do. [ An example of this: I don't believe code review tends to much help in itself, but I *do* believe that the process of doing code review makes people more aware of the fact that others are looking at the code they produce, and that in turn makes the code often better to start with. And I think publicly announced git trees and -mm and linux-next are great partly because they end up doing that same thing. I heartily encourage submaintainers to always Cc: linux-kernel when they send me a "please pull" request - I don't know if anybody else ever really pulls that tree, but I do think that it's very healthy to write that message and think of it as a publication event. ] Linus --
| Mikulas Patocka | LFENCE instruction (was: [rfc][patch 3/3] x86: optimise barriers) |
| Daniel J Blueman | time for TCP ECN defaulting to on? |
| Renato S. Yamane | Error -71 on device descriptor read/all |
| Zdenek Kabelac | Suspend to memory is freezing my machine |
git: | |
| Abdelrazak Younes | Git-windows and git-svn? |
| Giuseppe Bilotta | Re: gitweb and remote branches |
| Petr Baudis | repo.or.cz wishes? |
| Josh England | Re: cloning/pulling hooks |
| Reyk Floeter | Re: Real men don't attack straw men |
| Alexey Suslikov | OT: OpenBSD on Asus eeePC |
| Jernej Makovsek | How secure is OpenBSD really |
| Girish Venkatachalam | Ethernet jumbo frames? |
| Kim Phillips | [PATCH 0/5] fixups for mpc8360 rev. 2.1 erratum #2 (RGMII Timing) |
| Michael Grollman | Re: 8169 Intermittent ifup Failure Issue With RTL8102E Chipset in Intel's New D945... |
| Gerrit Renker | [PATCH 5/5] dccp: Tidy up setsockopt calls |
| Jeff Garzik | Re: [bug?] tg3: Failed to load firmware "tigon/tg3_tso.bin" |
