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"This is the listing of the open bugs that are relatively new, around 2.6.22 and up. They are vaguely classified by specific area," Natalie Protasevich said, posting a current list of bugs each linking to an appropriate bugzilla.kernel.org entry. Andrew Morton reviewed the list, noting "no response from developers" in response to many of the bugs. David Miller pointed out that in some cases this wasn't true, referring to 46 bug fixes queued in his networking tree and another 10 already pushed upstream, "when someone like me is bug fixing full time, I take massive offense to the impression you're trying to give especially when it's directed at the networking. So turn it down a notch Andrew." Andrew wasn't convinced, "first we need to work out whether we have a problem. If we do this, then we can then have a think about what to do about it. I tried to convince the 2006 KS attendees that we have a problem and I resoundingly failed. People seemed to think that we're doing OK." He continued:
"This is not a minor matter. If the kernel _is_ slowly deteriorating then this won't become readily apparent until it has been happening for a number of years. By that stage there will be so much work to do to get us back to an acceptable level that it will take a huge effort. And it will take a long time after that for the kerel to get its reputation back. So it is important that we catch deterioration *early* if it is happening."
From: Natalie Protasevich Subject: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs Date: Nov 12, 11:42 pm 2007 This is the listing of the open bugs that are relatively new, around 2.6.22 and up. They are vaguely classified by specific area. (not a full list, there are more :) The good part is that reporters of the bugs below are still around and haven't dissipated, or disposed of their hardware, so it is a good time to get the bugs. Those bugzillas that have been started as regressions on Rafael's list are not mentioned here so far, since they are being tracked as new regressions already. It would be appreciated if the corresponding maintenance team could take a look, close off any which are fixed and see if they can fix any which aren't. NOTE: when replying to this email, please add the bug number to the Subject in the form [Bug 1234] so that bugzilla will capture the discussion. Thanks. ACPI==================================================================== System does not load without acpi=off ide=nodma noapic http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9358 Kernel: 2.6.23.1 ACPI Error attaching device data http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9354 Kernel: 2.6.24-rc2 /proc/acpi/battery displays Incorrect voltages http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9341 Kernel: 2.6.23.1 PATA scan: ACPI Exception AE_AML_PACKAGE_LIMIT... is beyond end of object http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9320 Kernel: 2.6.24-rc2 (Tejun: calling _GTF without calling _STM first. _GTM doesn't have any prerequisite (it can't). Can someone familiar with ACPI tell me why the method is failing? At any rate, libata should work fine regardless of ACPI failures. Maybe it's time to start blacklist to skip ATA-ACPI for some boards to avoid those annoying messages during boot) ACPI Battery Info in /sys but not /proc/acpi http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9183 Kernel: 2.6.23-rc8-mm2 When using ACPI on a Compaq Presario V6221EU the laptop goes into deadlock after a random amount of time http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9118 Kernel: 2.6.23-rc6 ACPI video driver should validate brightness level before setting it via _BCM http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9277 Kernel: 2.6.23 VIDEO/DVB dvb driver reboot system http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9357 Kernel: 2.6.21.5 PLATFORM=============================================================== xipImage is built so that uBoot cant run it (ARM) http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9356 Kernel: 2.6.21 Samsung R20 - ACPI: PCI Root Bridge [PCI0] (0000:00) http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9339 Kernel: 2.6.24 (boot is very long ..MP-BIOS bug: 8254 timer not connected to IO-APIC then the boot stop at : ACPI: PCI Root Bridge [PCI0] (0000:00) (during 3 minutes, and boot continue) system_64.h: switch_to inline asm should be more robbust wrt optimizations http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9302 Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 with CONFIG_NO_HZ and/or CONFIG_HPET_TIMER set kernel 2.6.23 doesn't boot (ARM, Timer) http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9229 Kernel: 2.6.23 NETWORKING=========================================================== RTNLGRP_ND_USEROPT does not report ifindex (IPv6) http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9349 Kernel: 2.6.24+ a kernel error happend in the func: __skb_dequeue when using in pfifo_fast_dequeue http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9342 Kernel: 2.6.11.1 - reporter asked to try recent kernel e100 does not work after boot http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9336 Kernel: 2.6.23.1 2.6.23.1-smp kernel panic (network-related) http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9318 Kernel: 2.6.23.1 Infiniband panic sundance -> 4port D-Link System Inc DFE-580TX -> Log errors http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9311 Kernel: 2.6.22.9 via-rhine driver stalls with: PHY status 786d, resetting... http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9300 Kernel: 2.6.23+ Weird network problems with 2.6.23-rc2 http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9080 http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/8/11/40 - description rt2500pci: low TCP throughput (wireless) http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9273 Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 This is a regression Unable to build wifi network between zd1201 and b43 http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9237 Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 Crash after module unload in b43 (wireless) http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9233 Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 (net typhoon) "no descs for cmd, had (needed) 0 (1) cmd, 31 (7) resp" http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9225 Kernel: 2.6.23.1 IDE/SATA========================================================= pata_pdc202xx_old excessive ATA bus errors http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9337 2.6.24-rc2 Drive seagate ST380011AS needs to be blacklisted http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9309 Kernel: 2.6.22.X DVD-RAM umount and disk free bug http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9265 Kernel: 2.6.15 (asked to try current kernel) FILE SYSTEMS======================================================= ext4: delalloc space accounting problem drops data http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9329 Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 POSIX Access Control Lists cause bogus file system check errors http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9241 Kernel: 2.6.23.1 MEMORY MANAGEMENT================================================ My system hangs when it has no more free memory to allocate via malloc() http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9316 Kernel: 2.6.23 User program, "My system hangs when it has no more free memory to allocate via malloc()" BUG: unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address 26121228/kswapd0[231] exited with preempt_count 1 http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9305 EIP is at free_block+0x6d/0xe4 Kernel: 2.6.22.6 POWER MANAGEMENT================================================== IBM X41 looses time after Suspend2Disk http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9314 Kernel: 2.6.23 Suspend to RAM resume hangs on a tickless (NO_HZ) kernel http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9275 Kernel: 2.6.23 This is HP notebook nc6320 T2400 945GM VIDEO DRIVERS======================================================== No text consoles with FRAMEBUFFER_CONSOLE_DETECT_PRIMARY http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9310 Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 This is a regression PARALLEL PORT======================================================== LPC IT8705 POST port making noise on parallel port http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9306 Kernel: 2.6.16+ I/O STORAGE=========================================================== kernel bug from pktcdvd http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9294 Kernel: 2.6.23 After pci-e video card was installed, pci add-on usb card & firewire card fail http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9223 Kernel: 2.6.20 (testing of latest kernel requested) SCSI================================================================== qla2xxx: driver initialization does not complete when booting with Port connected http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9267 Kernel: 2.6.23.1 SOUND ALSA============================================================ Unable to load snd-hda-intel module: Unknown symbol in module, or unknown parameter http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9242 Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 usbaudio microphone: regular sound distortion on several Logitech Webcams http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9230 Kernel: 2.6.22.9 HID==================================================================== Kernel NULL pointer dereference at :usbhid:hiddev_ioctl+0x2f/0xabc http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9216 Kernel: 2.6.23.1 Looks like this is a regression - 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From: Andrew Morton Subject: Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs Date: Nov 13, 4:15 am 2007 On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:42:32 -0800 "Natalie Protasevich" <protasnb@gmail.com> wrote: > This is the listing of the open bugs that are relatively new, around > 2.6.22 and up. They are vaguely classified by specific area. > (not a full list, there are more :) > > The good part is that reporters of the bugs below are still around and > haven't dissipated, or disposed of their hardware, so it is a good > time to get the bugs. > Those bugzillas that have been started as regressions on Rafael's list > are not mentioned here so far, since they are being tracked as new > regressions already. Thanks. > It would be appreciated if the corresponding maintenance team could take a > look, close off any which are fixed and see if they can fix any which aren't. > > NOTE: when replying to this email, please add the bug number to the Subject in > the form [Bug 1234] so that bugzilla will capture the discussion. > Thanks. You're optimistic. > ACPI==================================================================== > > System does not load without acpi=off ide=nodma noapic > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9358 > Kernel: 2.6.23.1 One response from a developer > ACPI Error attaching device data > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9354 > Kernel: 2.6.24-rc2 Zero responses from developers > /proc/acpi/battery displays Incorrect voltages > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9341 > Kernel: 2.6.23.1 Zero responses from developers > PATA scan: ACPI Exception AE_AML_PACKAGE_LIMIT... is beyond end of object > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9320 > Kernel: 2.6.24-rc2 > (Tejun: calling _GTF without calling _STM first. _GTM doesn't have any > prerequisite (it can't). Can someone familiar with ACPI tell me why the method > is failing? At any rate, libata should work fine regardless of ACPI failures. > Maybe it's time to start blacklist to skip ATA-ACPI for some boards to avoid > those annoying messages during boot) Tejun doing stuff > ACPI Battery Info in /sys but not /proc/acpi > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9183 > Kernel: 2.6.23-rc8-mm2 Marked as a duplicate of an already-resolved bug. > > When using ACPI on a Compaq Presario V6221EU the laptop goes into > deadlock after a random amount of time > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9118 > Kernel: 2.6.23-rc6 Someone called Jike Song is trying to help out. Regular developers awol. > > ACPI video driver should validate brightness level before setting it via _BCM > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9277 > Kernel: 2.6.23 Zero responses from developers > VIDEO/DVB > > dvb driver reboot system > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9357 > Kernel: 2.6.21.5 Mauro thinks it might be bad hardware > > PLATFORM=============================================================== > > xipImage is built so that uBoot cant run it (ARM) > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9356 > Kernel: 2.6.21 Zero responses from developers > > Samsung R20 - ACPI: PCI Root Bridge [PCI0] (0000:00) > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9339 > Kernel: 2.6.24 > (boot is very long > ..MP-BIOS bug: 8254 timer not connected to IO-APIC > then the boot stop at : > ACPI: PCI Root Bridge [PCI0] (0000:00) > (during 3 minutes, and boot continue) No response from developers > system_64.h: switch_to inline asm should be more robbust wrt optimizations > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9302 > Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 Not really a bug. > with CONFIG_NO_HZ and/or CONFIG_HPET_TIMER set kernel 2.6.23 doesn't > boot (ARM, Timer) > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9229 > Kernel: 2.6.23 No response from developers > NETWORKING=========================================================== > > RTNLGRP_ND_USEROPT does not report ifindex (IPv6) > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9349 > Kernel: 2.6.24+ No response from developers > a kernel error happend in the func: __skb_dequeue when using in > pfifo_fast_dequeue > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9342 > Kernel: 2.6.11.1 - reporter asked to try recent kernel No response from developers > e100 does not work after boot > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9336 > Kernel: 2.6.23.1 No response from developers > 2.6.23.1-smp kernel panic (network-related) > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9318 > Kernel: 2.6.23.1 > Infiniband panic No response from developers > sundance -> 4port D-Link System Inc DFE-580TX -> Log errors > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9311 > Kernel: 2.6.22.9 No response from developers > via-rhine driver stalls with: PHY status 786d, resetting... > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9300 > Kernel: 2.6.23+ No response from developers > > Weird network problems with 2.6.23-rc2 > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9080 > http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/8/11/40 - description No response from developers > rt2500pci: low TCP throughput (wireless) > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9273 > Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 > This is a regression No response from developers > Unable to build wifi network between zd1201 and b43 > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9237 > Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 No response from developers > Crash after module unload in b43 (wireless) > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9233 > Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 No response from developers > (net typhoon) "no descs for cmd, had (needed) 0 (1) cmd, 31 (7) resp" > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9225 > Kernel: 2.6.23.1 No response from developers > > IDE/SATA========================================================= > > pata_pdc202xx_old excessive ATA bus errors > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9337 > 2.6.24-rc2 No response from developers > Drive seagate ST380011AS needs to be blacklisted > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9309 > Kernel: 2.6.22.X Jeff and Tehun did some stuff. > DVD-RAM umount and disk free bug > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9265 > Kernel: 2.6.15 (asked to try current kernel) No response from developers > FILE SYSTEMS======================================================= > > ext4: delalloc space accounting problem drops data > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9329 > Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 No response from developers > POSIX Access Control Lists cause bogus file system check errors > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9241 > Kernel: 2.6.23.1 Andreas did some work, seemed to lose interest. > MEMORY MANAGEMENT================================================ > > My system hangs when it has no more free memory to allocate via malloc() > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9316 > Kernel: 2.6.23 > User program, "My system hangs when it has no more free memory to > allocate via malloc()" Rafael poked Thomas a week ago, to no effect. Thomas has been travelling. > BUG: unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address > 26121228/kswapd0[231] exited with preempt_count 1 > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9305 > EIP is at free_block+0x6d/0xe4 > Kernel: 2.6.22.6 No response from developers > POWER MANAGEMENT================================================== > > IBM X41 looses time after Suspend2Disk > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9314 > Kernel: 2.6.23 Rafael poked Thomas a week ago, to no effect. Thomas has been travelling. > Suspend to RAM resume hangs on a tickless (NO_HZ) kernel > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9275 > Kernel: 2.6.23 > This is HP notebook nc6320 T2400 945GM No response from developers > > VIDEO DRIVERS======================================================== > > No text consoles with FRAMEBUFFER_CONSOLE_DETECT_PRIMARY > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9310 > Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 > This is a regression No response from developers > > PARALLEL PORT======================================================== > > LPC IT8705 POST port making noise on parallel port > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9306 > Kernel: 2.6.16+ > No response from developers > I/O STORAGE=========================================================== > > kernel bug from pktcdvd > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9294 > Kernel: 2.6.23 I think we might have fixed this. > After pci-e video card was installed, pci add-on usb card & firewire card fail > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9223 > Kernel: 2.6.20 (testing of latest kernel requested) No response from developers > SCSI================================================================== > > qla2xxx: driver initialization does not complete when booting with > Port connected > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9267 > Kernel: 2.6.23.1 No response from developers > SOUND ALSA============================================================ > > Unable to load snd-hda-intel module: Unknown symbol in module, or > unknown parameter > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9242 > Kernel: 2.6.24-rc1 Takashi has responded > usbaudio microphone: regular sound distortion on several Logitech Webcams > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9230 > Kernel: 2.6.22.9 Clemens responded > HID==================================================================== > > Kernel NULL pointer dereference at :usbhid:hiddev_ioctl+0x2f/0xabc > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9216 > Kernel: 2.6.23.1 > Looks like this is a regression No response from developers So I count around seven reports which people are doing something with and twenty seven which have been just ignored. Three of these reports have been identified as regressions. All three of those remain unresponded to. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
From: David Miller Subject: Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs Date: Nov 13, 4:39 am 2007 From: Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:15:53 -0800 > > NETWORKING=========================================================== > > > > RTNLGRP_ND_USEROPT does not report ifindex (IPv6) > > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9349 > > Kernel: 2.6.24+ > > No response from developers That's funny, then how come there was a proper patch fix posted and it's now in my tree ready to go to Linus? I think you like just saying "No response from developers" over and over again to make some of point about how developers are ignoring lots of bugs. That's fine, but at least be accurate about it :-) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
From: Andrew Morton Subject: Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs Date: Nov 13, 4:49 am 2007 On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:39:46 -0800 (PST) David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote: > From: Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org> > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:15:53 -0800 > > > > NETWORKING=========================================================== > > > > > > RTNLGRP_ND_USEROPT does not report ifindex (IPv6) > > > http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9349 > > > Kernel: 2.6.24+ > > > > No response from developers > > That's funny, then how come there was a proper patch fix posted > and it's now in my tree ready to go to Linus? > > I think you like just saying "No response from developers" over and > over again to make some of point about how developers are ignoring > lots of bugs. That's fine, but at least be accurate about it :-) Do you believe that our response to bug reports is adequate? - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
From: David Miller Subject: Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs Date: Nov 13, 4:58 am 2007 From: Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:49:16 -0800 > Do you believe that our response to bug reports is adequate? Do you feel that making us feel and look like shit helps? I guess I'm just masterbating here all night long with the 46 bug fixes I've reviewed fully and queued up into my tree. Along with all the 10 or so -stable submissions I did tonight as well. When someone like me is bug fixing full time, I take massive offense to the impression you're trying to give especially when it's directed at the networking. So turn it down a notch Andrew. I bet if you did things like list explicitly by name every single person who adds a bug fix (however trivial) to an -mm release instead of a new feature, you'll better achieve your goal than what you're doing here. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
From: Andrew Morton Subject: Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs Date: Nov 13, 5:12 am 2007 On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:58:24 -0800 (PST) David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote: > From: Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org> > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:49:16 -0800 > > > Do you believe that our response to bug reports is adequate? > > Do you feel that making us feel and look like shit helps? > That doesn't answer my question. See, first we need to work out whether we have a problem. If we do this, then we can then have a think about what to do about it. I tried to convince the 2006 KS attendees that we have a problem and I resoundingly failed. People seemed to think that we're doing OK. But it appears that data such as this contradicts that belief. This is not a minor matter. If the kernel _is_ slowly deteriorating then this won't become readily apparent until it has been happening for a number of years. By that stage there will be so much work to do to get us back to an acceptable level that it will take a huge effort. And it will take a long time after that for the kerel to get its reputation back. So it is important that we catch deterioration *early* if it is happening. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
From: David Miller Subject: Re: [BUG] New Kernel Bugs Date: Nov 13, 5:32 am 2007 From: Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 04:12:59 -0800 > On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:58:24 -0800 (PST) David Miller <davem@davemloft.net> wrote: > > > From: Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org> > > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:49:16 -0800 > > > > > Do you believe that our response to bug reports is adequate? > > > > Do you feel that making us feel and look like shit helps? > > That doesn't answer my question. > > See, first we need to work out whether we have a problem. If we do this, > then we can then have a think about what to do about it. > > I tried to convince the 2006 KS attendees that we have a problem and I > resoundingly failed. People seemed to think that we're doing OK. > > But it appears that data such as this contradicts that belief. > > This is not a minor matter. If the kernel _is_ slowly deteriorating then > this won't become readily apparent until it has been happening for a number > of years. By that stage there will be so much work to do to get us back to > an acceptable level that it will take a huge effort. And it will take a > long time after that for the kerel to get its reputation back. > > So it is important that we catch deterioration *early* if it is happening. You tell me what I should spend my time working on, and I promise to do it OK? :-) For example, if I have a choice between a TCP crash just about anyone can hit and some obscure issue only reported with some device nearly nobody has, which one should I analyze and work on? That's the problem. All of us prioritize and it means the chaff collects at the bottom. You cannot fix that except by getting more bug fixers so that the chaff pile has a chance to get smaller. Luckily if the report being ignored isn't chaff, it will show up again (and again and again) and this triggers a reprioritization because not only is the bug no longer chaff, it also now got a lot of information tagged to it so it's a double worthwhile investment to work on the problem. I think a lot of bugs that "aren't getting looked at" are simply sitting in some early stage of this process. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Offline
No Sympathy, Just Update the Bugzilla
The title says it all. I have been doing software development for over 15 years now.
I have learned that it takes minimal effort to properly document, within a bugzilla context, the bugs I have, and am, working on.
Small rectification
The ACPI bug about the Compaq Presario V6221EU is not alive because I don't have it at the moment.... . It did took a while to get a response. However, once they responded they helped me *alot*.
Meep
There are some really old and really grumpy farts in the Linux project. I'm not optimistic.
Rename it GeriatricOS.
Your not helpful or even
Your not helpful or even useful so careful the stones you throw.
Firstly, Linux is not an OS
Firstly, Linux is not an OS .... well someone has to do the pedant duty.
Secondly, nearly every programmer I have ever met is a grumpy old fart, especially the women, in fact I think a sunny-disposition is a very worrying thing for a programmer to have, sunny-dispositions and screwdrivers.
And decaf coffee.
Linux OS?
Well, if this was a fact you'd be right, but it's not. Many will say Linux is an OS (Tannenbaum does, and so does Linus if I'm not mistaken). Others will say Linux is an OS kernel (or just kernel) and that you need a bunch of user-land tools to have a complete OS (RMS prefers this definition for obvious reasons).
Linux appears to be a
Linux appears to be a kernel, and a kernel alone does not an OS make, I am quite surprised that Tannenbaum and Torvalds would take such a line, do you have references ?
People call it Linux
Linux is an OS. The is Linux-the-kernel, and Linux-the-OS. I mean, what else are you going to call the base system us "Linux users" are running? You could call it GNU/Linux, maybe, but then the vast majority of Linux systems are NOT running much if any GNU software (think embedded devices, as they often do not use the GNU libc, GNU binutils, or other GNU components). Some Linux systems might not even be compiled using a GNU compiler, thanks to ICC and maybe soon LLVM-clang.
Even a desktop Linux distribution is not even 50% GNU software. Sure, I have the GNU libc, binutils, it's all compiled with gcc, but those are actually really small parts of the whole system, and they are easily replacable with compatible parts. Even if you consider that many desktop systems run GNOME (theoretically the GNU desktop, although I don't think it's really strongly connected to GNU these days anymore), you need to remember that HAL, D-BUS, X.org, and most of the other system daemons and utils that the system needs to be even remotely useful are not GNU code; few of them are even GPLd. If you take into account even a few user-facing apps (and in the days of "the OS is just there to run a browser," I think you have to), the most popular browser on Linux of all is certainly not a GNU project.
Server systems are in the same boat, as they generally don't even run a single GNU server daemon, what with Apache and Sendmail/Postfix/Evim/Qmail and MySQL all being the popular server daemons. Maybe you don't consider those daemons part of the OS, and that's fine. Take those away and you're still facing a system that's mostly not GNU software (even if most of it is GPLd).
So, really, what is the name for this OS, if Linux is the kernel and nothing else at all? GNU/Linux is a complete misnomer. Ubuntu or Fedora or SUSE aren't quite right either, as those distinct names all imply that they are somehow totally different OSes, despite the fact that really they're all running 95% the exact same stuff and you can move source and binaries between them with no problems in most cases.
Despite what you may want to think, despite your over-pedantic correctness in naming things, just about the entire world calls the complete OS "Linux." Get over it.
I understand that people
I understand that people refer to their linux-based OS as linux, that does not bother me at all. Yes, I was being pedantic, but I was also correct, get over it.
GNU/LInux
Your argument has been refuted before. Here is a reminder.
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html
That's hardly a refutation
That's hardly a refutation of anything. Anymore than complaining that people say "they" when referring to a singular object. Regardless of what it "technically" should be, the reality is different. The reality is that when people say "Linux" they _mean_ the kernel plus userland...basically everything outside of apps. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's quite common to use a specific term referring to the core or major component to mean the entire thing. It's called synecdoche (and relatedly, metonymy) and it is a well-established practice.
Requiring people to say "GNU/Linux" implies that GNU and Linux are separable entities that just happen to come together in this case, but generally, they do not. Clearly, that is not the case. Linux and the GNU userland are closely tied together. There are no other mainstream systems with the GNU userland (and no Linux kernel underneath) and there are few distributions outside of the embedded world that have a Linux kernel without the GNU userland. People don't want to say GNU/Linux because it imparts no extra information, and actually reduces clarity as it implies something about the referent that is not true.
People like Stallman and cronies are ignorant of how language works. What they are asking for is nonsense, and it smacks of arrogance and whinyness.
What is an OS ? is not a
What is an OS ? is not a gray question when it comes to UNIX like operating systems. POSIX (while you're at it, look up who coined that term) gives a very narrow and precise definition of what is is supposed to have and how it is supposed to behave.
Read the spec and look up all the little and big mandatory utilities. Look at the libraries that implement the procedure calls needed for compliance. And then look at who wrote that vast body of code in a modern "Linux" system.
Regardless of that, GNU is no longer just a technical name for an OS. I run GNU because Software Freedom is its most important asset to me and that's why I call it that. Maybe someone else's values differ from mine, and they call it differently and that's okay, as long as they've considered the matter.
As for rms calling it GNU/Linux; he's in a damned if he does/damned if he doesn't situation. If he were to change and start saying "back in 1986 when we started writing the Linux operating system" the same hecklers who now mock him for saying GNU/Linux would be all over it saying "But he *never* even contributed a single line of code to Linux; he's just hijacking the popularity of the name for his own purpose".
Your one of those people who
Your one of those people who thinks that if we change the way people talk, we'll change the way people think. Unfortunately, the evidence goes against that kind of thinking. One big example of the failure of this line of thinking is the euphemism treadmill. We started using "mentally retarded" as a euphemism instead of earlier phrases like "dumb" and "stupid". Now, "retarded" almost always has a negative, pejorative sense and we have moved on to new phrases, such as "learning disabled", which will surely suffer the same fate in time. As long as people still see those with mental disabilities as inferior and worthy of derision, then whatever phrase we attach to them will come to mean the same thing as "dumb" and "stupid" and now "retarded".
Even if we somehow made people say "GNU" instead of "Linux", if "GNU" didn't mean idealistic software freedom to them (and it likely wouldn't), "GNU" would just end up being on the same footing as "Linux" and would be no more enlightening to the users than "Linux" is. It all goes back to the fact that the definition of a word is, and always will be, what the majority of speakers deems it to be. And if to the majority of speakers "Linux" or even "GNU" means "operating system + desktop environment + some apps" then that's what it will mean, regardless of how much time RMS spends foaming at the mouth about how everyone is being mean to him by not using his chosen language.
>>Your one of those people
>>Your one of those people who thinks ...
>>how much time RMS spends foaming at the mouth
Let's just skip on trying grown up replies and discussion for this thread. Try to be less arrogant next time.
hand
What is incorrect about "one
What is incorrect about "one of those people"? He is a member of the group of people who think that changing the way people talk will change the way people think.
As for RMS foaming at the mouth...well, that's pretty much all his "say GNU/Linux or die" page is all about. I'm sorry it offends you, but the fact of the matter is, he is the one being immature and childish. I'm simply pointing it out.
>What is incorrect about
>What is incorrect about "one of those people"? He is a member of the group of >people who think that changing the way people talk will change the way people >think.
He argues
1.Technically "linux" is GNU
2.regardless of the correct technical name, what you call it reflects what it means to you.
3. It doesn't matter what rms would call it, people would still ridicule him for it.
based upon that you generalize him and make all sorts of assumptions based on him belonging to an ill-defined fictitious group, which you then argue against, skipping every point he made. That's called a strawman.
>I'm simply pointing it out.
You're dressing up an opinion as fact and basically say you're apolitical about it. And it's apolitical because it's based on fact.
That's the actual meaning of the much misused "begging the question".
It's a common affliction in the "It's called LINUX (ps: rms sucks)" camp, and it's anything *but* "simply pointing it out".
Kernel vs OS
Not in front of me, no. If I remember correctly, Tannenbaum explains his definition in the book Modern Operating Systems. Not sure about Linus, though. Might have been in the documentary "Revolution OS". I guess the point is that there's no true consensus of what defines an OS.
I will check my references after work and correct myself if I'm wrong.
Just checked my facts.
Just checked my facts.
Let's start with Linus Torvalds. In the documentary Revolution OS he says something like "To kind of explain what Linux is, you have to explain what an operating system is... and the thing about an operating system is that you're never ever supposed to see it... nobody really uses an operating system, people use programs".
Then there's Tannenbaum in his book Modern Operating Systems where he explains two popular views of what an operating system is -- "The Operating System as an Extended Machine" and "The Operating System as a Resource Manager". The details is all about "kernel" internals, nothing about user programs, yet he's saying operating system.
Not that it'd be wrong to refer to Ubuntu or Windows as operating systems, IMO. However, the word "platform" might be more appropriate. YMMV.
fact checking
OK, you've checked your facts, but I don't see how they back up your previous statement.
Take Linus' statement -- where does he say Linux is an OS? Linux is definitely part of an OS so it's nice to explain the concept of an OS before saying how Linux fits in, but I don't see Linus saying it *is* an OS.
Looking at the quotes from Andy Tannenbaum, I still don't see where you get the idea that Linux is the OS. The OS does not include your typical user programs so I don't expect Andy to talk about them; however, the OS does include the kernel and various other bits. The other bits include programs such as 'init' (well, that's what it's called in UNIX), the linker/loader, a shell, 'mount', 'login', and so on (and on and on). Depending on exactly what you're doing, you can eliminate the linker/loader, shell, mount, login and many others, but you cannot eliminate 'init' - so in the worst case, an OS would consist of the kernel and 'init' (and this used to be very common a decade ago, but many modern embedded devices have substantially more than the kernel + init).
Definition
This is all just nitpicking started by one wanting to be pedantic and correcting someone for claiming Linux is an OS. I don't really care what people call it, I'm just saying his correction is not necessarily correct (or incorrect for that matter, depending on your point of view).
He clearly states that you're never ever supposed to see an OS and that the only mission in life of an OS is to help other programs run. OS. Programs. What OS do you think he is talking about?
Because he explicitly mentions "user programs to help communicate with the operating system"? Perhaps you should just read the relevant pages.
Anyway, this is just unimportant pedantry. Linux is an OS or Linux is not an OS. Take your pick.
Heh....
Linus' comment clearly is about "People want to run a web browser and a word processor and whatever."
You guys are debating whether "bash", "ls", "cat" and "glibc" need to be included to call Linux an OS. Linus' point is "it doesn't matter."
--
Program Intellivision and play Space Patrol!
well
I guess you're the Linus expert around here, so we should probably just take your word for it ;-p
Metrics
What are the metrics that suggest the code is getting worse? Last year Linus decided to freeze development for a bug fix release. Maybe it is time to do this again.
It is well overdue to do it
It is well overdue to do it again, as opposed to piling in more features its time to fix the mess.
Things have gone completely downhill since 2.6.16 (to the point where I have to maintain my own 2.6.16 with backported drivers for new hardware just so I have a "stable" offering for clients to use for their hardware). This gets untenable as time moves forward...
I'm beginning to wonder if anyone is actually doing anything more than rudimentary testing of their changes/additions before commiting... nowadays you cant even rely on x86 working correctly...